To read aloud
FOURTEENTH DIALOGUE
January 8, 1999
Peter: For some time now I’ve been pondering on the effectiveness of
punishment and retribution as a means to deter criminal or any other
type of evil, bad and inappropriate behavior. May I ask You to elaborate
further on this subject? After all, if, let us say, a negative person
welcomes punishment, pain, retribution, or whatever in this respect,
because it is a pleasurable experience for him/her and even seeks them
out consciously or unconsciously, what is the use of applying them in
cases like that? On the other hand, what would be really effective in
changing that type of adverse behavior?
The Lord Jesus Christ: This is a very good question, Peter. Let us
discuss it a little bit deeper than we did previously. Take these factors
into consideration: Since when have punishment, retribution, and similar
methods, ever really changed anyone? Not only they don’t change
anyone, but anyone with that kind of negative nature becomes even more
negative, bitter, resentful, full of vengeance, murderous drive, rage and
similar negative emotions and thoughts. Oh, yes, in order to avoid
punishment and/or prison, while they are living in the human life, (at
this moment, we are not talking about this type of situation in the Hells),
they may pretend that they changed and receded from their criminal or
negative behavior. But don’t forget for a minute that punishment,
retribution and similar methods are totally and completely impositional.
Because of that, no internal change takes place where it counts and
where it effectively causes behavior alteration. Take, for example, an
abused child’s behavior. From your own clinical practice, from the
numerous cases you’ve dealt with during your many years of work in the
mental health field, you saw very clearly that the abused becomes an
abuser. This is a clinical fact, recorded in all your psychiatric textbooks.
Why is it so? Because when you are physically, mentally or in any other
way, abused, you have no choice in the matter but to internalize it and
identify yourself with that type of behavior. In that case, you will come to
the inevitable conclusion that such a mode of treating people is the
normal state of affairs in human life. The problem with this type of
abusive treatment is that it shuts the door to any other aspects of the
abused person’s mind, putting him/her into the position of having no
further choice but to become either mentally ill, developing some type of
personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder or psychosis, or, as
it happens in most instances, to become an abuser himself/herself.
From these facts, and numerous others, you can clearly see that
punishment and retribution have no positive spiritual value and are
utilized only in the negative state to make people more negative. Also,
punishment and retribution are inherent in the structure and dynamics
of the negative state in order to prevent the discovery of other modes —
that could really be permanently effective — of removing the negative
behavior. The reason for this fact is that punishment and retribution are
imposed from the externals to the externals. Nothing of an internal
nature is involved in this process. The only method that can work in this
respect is if it is initiated in the internals solely by internal means.
Unfortunately, in your typical human mind, you demand, expect and
want people to be punished for whatever they did to you or to others.
But what are internal means? Let us take someone in the Hells who
experiences punishment, pain, suffering, retribution and similar
emotions as pleasurable and desirable. Obviously, such methods would
not produce any changes in such a person. Not only that, but such a
person would become more negative, more evil and more cunning in
order to deserve more ‘rewards.’ So, what do you do with a person like
that? What is available to Me or to My agents that would be effective in
changing the behavior of such a person? Neither punishment nor
retribution nor any other impositional methods are applicable in our case
because they are not of the nature of the positive state. As pointed out
above, they are all external methods that don’t work. So, what do we do
in this case? How do we approach it?
This is a very crucial question because it leads to the very clear
indication of how the negative state can be permanently eliminated.
Obviously, it cannot be eliminated by continuously punishing people
because it becomes circular, leading nowhere; or leading to a greater
degree of negativity. Logically speaking, if something is negative, using
negative means to eliminate it makes it even more negative — instead of
eliminating it.
Imagine, if you can, the following scenario: A person is in one of the Hells
for committing a most horrible, putrid, vile and despicable murder. At
this point in time, he or she is incapable of experiencing any remorse or
sorrow for his/her awful deed. No matter how much he/she is punished,
he/she doesn’t feel anything internally but only externally because it is
coming from the externals; in this case, from someone else. He/she might
feel something externally, but such feelings are temporary and not
binding, because they soon disappear. In that case he/she reverts to
his/her previous behavior. However, put him/her in the situation of the
person he/she murdered in such a horrible way. Have him/her experience
all the minutest details of the process of being murdered, or whatever the
case may be, not from his/her own self but from the way the murdered
person experienced it. Put him/her in the internals of that person and
have him/her go through all the steps in all that happened and what was
felt at each moment of that process, having him/her experience the entire
terror and horror of that process. At the very same moment,
simultaneously and synchronously, open in that person the special area
which has been completely and totally locked up and inaccessible up to
that point, and which is designated in My New Revelation as the ability
to choose and change, in which ability is the fullness of My presence.
Inherent in, and an integral part of that ability is the ability to
experience compassion, remorse, sorrow and repentance, and all other
positive feelings. At that moment, the person in question is able to
experience such terrible shame and misery that he/she really wants to
die because he/she now knows that he/she deserves a similar or worse
fate than what he/she imposed on the murdered person. As he/she is
going through these types of experiences, he/she is introduced to the
concept of My Unconditional Mercy, Forgiveness and Compassion and is
told that they are available to him/her as well. Accepting and applying
them has a profound transformative effect on such a person. Gradually,
his/her negative aspects are removed and the original positive ones (from
the 5% or less) are opened more and more, to the extent that at one
point, a complete and total identity change occurs within them. At that
moment the old, negative, evil, despicable person really dies and a new,
positive, kind and loving one is born.
If you carefully analyze this process, or how the change is accomplished
in such a case, you will notice that nothing was imposed on that person
from the externals. No punishment, no retribution and no other punitive
means were used. Instead, as a matter of justice, that person was put
into the internals of the murdered one to show him/her what it is like to
go through that type of experience. Under these conditions, with the
simultaneous and synchronous opening of the doors to his/her ability to
choose and change, he/she is placed into a state of a different choice not
available to him/her up to that point because of their closure and
identification with the nature of the negative state. Once he/she is able to
experience remorse, shame, embarrassment and the need to repent,
he/she becomes eligible for My Unconditional Mercy, Forgiveness and
Compassion. By asking for them — and in this new condition he/she is
able to realize that he/she may and can ask for them by his/her own free
will and choice — they are attributed and appropriated to him/her and
they become the foundation on which his/her new personality and life are
built in a purely positive sense.
These, and similar, methods of converting to the positive state are being
utilized by Me and by My agents. In human life, the situation is
somewhat different. Don’t forget that human life is the epitome of life in
the most externals of the most externals. Because of that, while living on
planet Zero, and while illustrating and demonstrating the nature of such
a pseudo-life to all, the internal methods of deterring negative behavior,
whatever it may be, are not applicable in their case. Their position still
requires the external means of punishment and retribution, as depicted
in their criminal justice system, because, at this point in time, nothing
else is available to them.
However, bear in mind that just as their modes of life are temporary and
transient, so are the modes of their external punishment and retribution.
They don’t have a permanent impact on their internals, where it counts.
No real change of a permanent and lasting nature ever happens to them.
For that reason, in their case, the only change they can experience in this
respect is under the influence of the spiritual factors which are available
to them in My New Revelation and its Updates, and now in these
Dialogs. They may and can read them by external means and, if they
choose to apply them in their life, by that choice, their internals are
opened by Me, initiating the process of changing and transforming all
aspects of their personality from their very internals. The completion of
this process is accomplished after they depart from your planet. The
reason why this process cannot be completed while they are living on
planet Zero, is because they carry the typical human nature within and
with them, which impedes the completion of that process by its factor of
illustrating and demonstrating the life of the extreme externals.
In all other cases, any changes that take place on planet Zero under any
other conditions, are nullified after arriving in the spiritual world
because they are only of an external nature. Once there, they have to go
through the process described above.
What you have to understand clearly, Peter, and all who read these
words, is that the presently occurring shift — which influences all levels
of My multiverse, as well as everything and everyone outside of it —
indicates and requires that the only impactual and permanent positive
changes that could have eternal validity, may occur within any human or
any agent of the negative state situated on planet Zero, only by reading,
accepting and practicing My New Revelation and all its additions — as
recorded in its Updates and these Dialogs.
Everything else, any other methods or means, any pseudo-spiritual
movements, presently existing on your planet in such abundant
numbers, no matter how nice they look and sound; no matter how
positive and good they seem to be; no matter how much they can
accomplish or how many miracles they produce; no matter how deep they
seem to be, etc.; they are only of an external nature. Their impact is only
of a transient and temporary nature. They are incapable of producing
any lasting and eternally valid changes and/or transformation. Their
influence will fall away the moment their followers arrive in the spiritual
world. They are impotent to produce any internal changes. The reason
for this statement is in the fact that those methods and means are based
either on a distortion of the true spiritual reality, or they are outright
falsities. You cannot very well build anything lasting and permanent on
something that has no foundation in true reality. If you don’t contain any
truth within yourself but only distortions and falsities, no real change
can take place within you because you are building on something which
has no reality in itself and by itself. It is illusory, which falls apart
immediately upon realizing that it was distorted and/or false.
As you know, all presently existing religions and their numerous
derivatives, all pseudo-spiritual trends existing side by side on your
planet, don’t know, understand or apprehend the real truth. None of
them is aware of the real reasons for the existence of the negative state
and human life. They have none or very little notion of how, why, where,
under what conditions or for what purpose the negative state and human
life were initiated and are in their being and existence (pseudo-being and
pseudo-existence, from our standpoint). Their explanations for all of
these most important existential occurrences are totally off, having no
roots in true reality. Sure, since the time My New Revelation was
transmitted, when for the first time such questions were begging to be
answered, when its concepts registered in the multiversal consciousness
because of its availability and its influence, without being consciously
aware of it, suddenly, many started to talk about the fact that humans
were created (in our terms — fabricated) by some alien creatures. But
what do they know about the pseudo-creators; about My New Nature; of
why such things were permitted; what is the outcome of all of this; and of
similar important issues? Either nothing, or their knowledge is a total
distortion or a total falsity.
Because such proper, appropriate and true knowledge is only contained
in the totality of My current New Revelation, it is obvious that only on
this totality, anyone of the human stock or of the agents of the negative
state, can and may initiate any permanent, lasting and eternal changes,
which culminate in their total transformation upon their departure from
planet Zero and arrival in the spiritual world.
As far as the agents of the positive state and you who are connected to
My New Revelation are concerned, the situation is different in this
respect. Those of you who have such knowledge and who practice its
principles in your life, are in the process of continuously changing and
transforming the vestiges of the aspects of your human nature. You are
being maintained and updated in your true and original nature as it
stems directly from Me. You are outside of the negative state and of the
typical human life. Even though you are continuously being influenced
adversely by the human nature that is imposed on you by your own
choice and agreement with Me, by applying the principles of My New
Revelation in your life, that human nature is not attributed and/or
appropriated to you. It does not take hold in your internals where it
counts. Upon your arrival to the spiritual world, it will fall away.
My other agents on planet Zero who don’t know about the existence of
My New Revelation are covertly influenced by its availability and they
are being protected from falling into the traps of the life so typical to
human nature. They intuitively know what is proper and right for them
to do and how to live their lives in accordance with My principles.
Because of that, upon their arrival to the spiritual world, they will accept
My New Revelation with great happiness, joy, delight, pleasure and
elation.
However, let us go back to the issue of punishment and retribution. From
what was clearly indicated above, such concepts as those, the way they
are perceived, understood and utilized by the forces of the negative state
and by humans in general, are not only inconceivable in the positive
state, but they never even enter anyone’s mind. Instead, what you have
there is the sphere and atmosphere of unconditional mercy, forgiveness,
compassion and empathy which constantly radiate into the entire being
and existence. But, in the moment they enter the sphere and atmosphere
of the negative state, they are turned into their opposites: mercilessness,
unforgiveness, cruelty, rejection, vengeance and retaliation — by the
principles of ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ At the same time,
for those who are in need of punishment and retribution in the typical
human sense — to make him/her suffer for his/her crime, or whatever! —
the positive sphere and atmosphere of mercy, forgiveness, compassion
and empathy, place such a person into the mode of going through exactly
the same type of suffering and misery he/she imposed on others in
whatever manner or way. Because that suffering and misery are now
experienced by him/her, not from his/her own position, state or condition,
(that would be pleasurable!) but from the other person’s position or state,
the culprit in this case really experiences punishment and retribution in
the typical human sense — and not as a pleasurable event.
This setup yields to the necessary justice that needs to be done whenever
something evil, bad and negative is committed by anyone. At the same
time, after going through this type of punishment and retribution, it
places that culprit into the position of a choice to change or not to change
his/her behavior, attitude and negative lifestyle. The choice to change
causes the door to be opened to his/her ability to change and to choose,
resulting in the experience of remorse, sorrow and repentance and, at the
same time, enabling him/her to feel the true impact of mercy,
forgiveness, compassion and empathy that radiate into him/her. By that
factor, these take him/her out of the negative state. The choice not to
change places that person into a deeper Hell, where he/she continues in
his/her negative behavior, going through the same cycle as described
above until he/she realizes the futility of that lifestyle and subsequently
makes the right choice.
Peter: Talking about punishment, may I ask You to shed some light on
the proper meaning of Your own behavior during Your life on planet
Zero, when You drove out of the temple all those who bought and sold in
the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the
seats of those who sold doves?
The Lord Jesus Christ: Certainly, Peter. As you know, at the time of
My incarnation on planet Zero, the negative state was prevailing over
the positive state. The pseudo-creators and their minions were in full
charge and control of both your planet and the entire Zone of
Displacement. The temple, or the house of prayer, corresponded at that
time to the third level of the spiritual world in the positive state. Let Me
explain it: As you know, each world, regardless of what dimension, has
its own three levels. The most within or spiritual dimension of that world
constitutes its first level; the interior dimension of that world constitutes
its second level; and the external dimension of that world constitutes its
third level. You can also call these levels the degrees of each respective
world. The temple in question, or the house of prayer, corresponded at
that time to the third level of the spiritual world. At that time, the formal
prayers were required only on that level because of its somewhat
external position, relative to the second and first level, respectively. That
a commerce was going on in it — selling and buying things, signifies that
the third or external level, or degree, of the spiritual world was invaded
by the forces of the negative state. Selling doves signifies an attempt by
the pseudo-creators to corrupt and to sway the inhabitants of that level
or degree to join them in their efforts to proceed with the invasion of the
second level and, from that level, on to the first level. My driving them
out and overturning their tables and seats indicates the spiritual war
that was going on at that level, resulting into throwing out the forces of
the negative state from that level and pushing them back to the
intermediate world or the world of spirits; and locking up the pseudo-
creators. All these events happened at that time and they relate only to
that time and the spiritual situation that existed at that time.
Peter: Thank You so much for this explanation and for everything that
You conveyed to me in this Dialog.
The Lord Jesus Christ: You are welcome, Peter. It is always a
pleasure. And now I would recommend to finish it for today. Please, go
and eat something. Your body needs food. Have a very nice day.
Source: DIALOGUES WITH THE LORD JESUS CHRIST PART 1.
